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| World Longest iChat Convo |
| Tuesday, 22 April 2008 | |
 Pasted into Bean to see the word count..
62 pages, 20,588 words, 106,703 characters = World's Longest iChat convo. I'll be the first to admit... this is a bit excessive. It's always good talking to Tyler but today was absolutely insane. We were discussing the Church.. a topic that comes up quite often in our relationship. Actually, we were discussing a book he's reading but the only problem is that I've never read it. Needless to say, it made for interesting debate. I mean, can you imagine a book club where not everyone is on the same page... literally. Anyway, the conversation centered around what it would take for the Church to redeem her cultural voice in the world and we were tackling some of the hurdles that roadblock this from becoming reality.
He made an interesting statement... "There are issues that are keeping others from seeing who we are but I'm talking about issues that are keeping us from being what God intended." One deals with external issues we have no control over like how the world views us in light of abuse scandals or out-of-touch Christian subcultures... and the other deals with things we do have the power to change. The Church is not a business. It's not an organization, it is a living, breathing organism. We need to take more risks instead of playing it safe. To quote my favorite street artist, Banksy, in reference to all the Che Guevara paraphernalia that abounds... People always seem to think if they dress like a revolutionary they don't actually have to behave like one.
It takes courage to embrace the change that creates a new future in the Church. A future that includes being a voice across a spectrum of spheres and not just the religion/spiritual one.
It takes courage to give radical grace to the sinner instead of judgment... It takes courage to open up oneself to walk in authenticity instead of masking to keep up appearances... it takes courage to engage honest dialogue about real issues... It takes courage to engage culture instead of attacking it... and to sum up (in my words not his) Tyler's perspective, it takes courage to lead the way through New Testament models instead of merely following by adopting the world's leadership model of the "play-it-safe-CEO". What about you? What would you identify as some of the hurdles? But, don't stop there... offer solutions. And since this is my blog, I get to make the rules... try not to let jaded bitterness come through too much. As 'Big' John McCarthy used to say in the ring... "Let's get it on!" Tags: tyler sayre church ichat instant message unstoppable force erwin mcmanus che guevara banksy change
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written by Jess , April 22, 2008 Hey This may be taking this thing off-subject, but the way you worded something was pretty interesting. You called Banksy your favorite street artist. How common it has become nowadays to load our conversations with qualifiers. Banksy isn't an artist, he's a street artist. Kind of puts him in his place right away when its worded like that.
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written by Dan , April 22, 2008 I don't know if I was trying to qualify anything. I'd say Banksy is an artist in the purist sense but street art would be his forte. I guess I threw the "street" in there because he is my favorite in that realm. My favorite artist would be some obscure dutch painter I saw in the National Gallery in London. Since I don't know his name, that kind of ruins it though.
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written by Dan , April 22, 2008 Ok... since no one wants to jump in or no one has stopped by today... I thought I'd go ahead and comment on my own post... The whole thing was about redeeming our voice in culture. And essentially that means regaining influence that has been lost for whatever reason. But, as Tyler was so vigorously arguing yesterday... we can't change the past, we can only shape the future. To have a voice in our world we have to stop being afraid of it. Of course, I'm not suggesting that we embrace all aspects of culture but we'd better know what's going on. But I have to admit, I even have an issue with that last line. It implies that we should know what's going on and then respond to it. But that's not leading. To lead, we have to do more than merely be aware. We have to engage and that means launching outside the church into other spheres that actually shape culture. It means liberating people to be courageous in their calling to areas like government, education, arts and entertainment, and banking to name a few. But I'm not just talking about living it out... I'm talking about pointing to Christ as the empowerment not just to win the lost and do church stuff, but to actually excel in those areas and make this world a better place by bringing a little piece of Heaven to earth.
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written by Dana Erickson , April 22, 2008 did God call us to lead or did he just call us into relationship with him and ask that we reflect his image? as Christians is it our duty to worry about the reputation of the church as a whole and its relativity to the world as a whole?... i think its smaller then big...and by that i mean more individual...more relational...if we become a more REAL Christian...we will build REAL relationships....that will breed a more REAL church... i dunno...im not certain how its all 'supposed to be'....theres a sticky line....don't wanna be so consumed in church that God becomes bylaws and academics...and don't wanna be so submerged and relative to the culture i live in that i no longer reflect Christ... good topic....can't say i have any answers to the problems...
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written by Jess , April 22, 2008 To offer a different opinion (and keep in mind this is coming from someone who had a jaded view of the church handed down to her): Honestly, I don't think the American church has lost or will lose its relevancy. I've been to a lot of churches in the past few years, and the one I'm a member of now, I'm pretty sure this city would miss it if it disappeared. Saying that the American church isn't doing its job is kind of the same as saying American parents aren't doing their job. It's way too broad a statement. Only bad parents get press . . . when was the last time anyone was put in the paper for NOT hitting their kids? I think there are much more engaging, relevant, and thriving community churches in this country then we realize. The problem is that we never talk about it -- it never makes the news. In this society, we don't talk about the church with a post-abortion counselor, we talk about the one that blows the clinic up. Because no one notices a system without catastrophic error. A church that actively and successfully fights homelessness -- it's nothing special because it's a church doing it's job.
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written by Dana Erickson , April 23, 2008 high five potter!!! I'm with you...you said it way better then i know how to! :-)
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written by tyler sayre , April 23, 2008 'Of course, I'm not suggesting that we embrace all aspects of culture but we'd better know what's going on'. i really like this line dan... reminds me of an amazing part of scripture in 1 chronicles when its listing different groups of people within the tribes and what they were good at some were warriors, so on so on... but it says in chronicles of the 'men of Issachar, who understood the times and knew what Israel should do' what an awesome statement, and i think it really fits with the topic. in my concern with the CEO mentality im not advocating doing away with watching TED talks, or reading gladwell... i think these are great, we must know the times, but also with a healthy spiritual instinctive know what the church should do. and as i love the post jess, i really feel like there is more hope for the church now then ever, we have awesome potential and the future is amazing. but i think what are the things that are keeping us from being 'the head and not the tail'... should we always be one step behind, i think as with the book im reading by McManus we should be the catalyst of change and the shapers of culture. i didnt really think this post through so it might be a little disorganized but its back to class. thanks
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written by tyler sayre , April 23, 2008 how do we get the good press out? i think you're right jess there are great churches in lots of places, how do these churches produce and attract influencers who will shape culture?
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written by Cory S. , April 23, 2008 I'm going to flat out say that the statement, "I don't think the American church has lost or will lose its relevancy," is naive. Seriously, maybe you have been to churches that are doing it right, but the church isn't churches. its a whole. and we do have to worry about the church as a whole and how we look to society, because we have no influence. There are 2 aspects to the church. our individual spiritual lives and relationships, and a practical organization. an organization that needs to practically look at society and figure out if we are relevant as a whole, or a laughing stock. example. have you listened to any "christian radio" lately. of course you haven't. its gay. and we can look at that and say well those guys are goons and truly have nothing to do with the "real church." but they have everything to do with the real church, because it is the only thing on satellite radio with a christian label on it. so that is what people see us as. so what does that have to do with the church? it is part of our organization that we need to get a freaking handle on and say, "Shut Up! you're doing it wrong." Its even a cliche now to say we as christians need to be the most creative people out there, but that is the truth of the matter.
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written by Jess , April 23, 2008 You know, the more I think about it, the more I wonder -- is good press necessary? I don't think so. I think my point earlier was that a church that is truly impacting the country doesn't need to be written about -- its actions speak louder. And I've never read the McManus book you're reading, Tyler, so I'm kinda short handed in all this, but is it really the church's job to attract "cultural influencers"? And what does that even mean? I understand the verse from 1 Chronicles, but I think here's a huge reason why Paul spent so much time embracing his personal oppression and the oppression of the Church. I don't think the Church is supposed to become the new cool table. It's suposed to be a place where the poor, the widowed and the orphaned feel comfortable and accepted. Can we have both? Absolutely, yes. But focusing on attracting healthy people to act as leaders is, from my understanding, not at all why the Church was given to us.
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written by tyler sayre , April 23, 2008 well for example jess, you used Paul... Paul was able to do so much of what he did because of who he was before he found Christ, im not saying disregard the widows and the poor... but i do think Paul was divinely chosen (which he was) for a reason... probably because he had influence, he was an enemy who became a part... now of course what im not advocating is jumping and celebrating when the guitar player from korn becomes a christian over the orphan or widow... im not saying that... i just think as the church we should be 'above and not beneath' 'head and not the tail' i think we should be the ones with the answers because we have the Answer. i think its the job of the church to be attractive to everyone... i think we should cause people to be 'jealous' for the things of God. so i think lumping 'cultural influencers' in there is ok.
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written by tyler sayre , April 23, 2008 when i say attractive to everyone im not advocating compromise of biblcal truth either, which includes the cross, servanthood, all this that and the other... im just saying catalyst of change in the world, the ones who insert the good news... im not talking about making better cds, im talking about having a platform from the tools god has given us to bring his message into the world
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written by Dan , April 23, 2008 In battling this headcold, this is the first I've been able to weigh in. I do think the conversation is important. I'm not saying the Church should primarily be about being Culturally Relevant (whatever that means). Obviously, the Church primarily is about pointing people to God. But I do think the cultural thing comes into play in making this happen. I'm not suggesting, for lack of a better word, "Cool" should be held up as the standard, just for the sake of cool. That's missing the point entirely and there are plenty out there that would swing that way as well. But I do think that engaging culture is redeeming something that has been lost. I look at the Reformation and I see how the Church influenced aspects like art and education. In NT times, the Synagogue was a Cultural Center in it's day and not just a house of worship. Paul on Mars Hill was able to speak with them about their Unknown God because he was there... engaged in the place where the people who needed Christ most were. I will agree with you Jess (and by default Dana's high five) that there are churches out there doing incredible things and I do have hope for the Church and also in the Church. But we can do better, and that's really where I am coming from with engaging this kind of dialogue. We can do better... we must do better. There's too much at stake not to.
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written by ~wade , April 23, 2008 The problem I see with the American Church resides in the fact that there are too many "flavors" so to speak. There are many as previously mentioned doing it right, but there are many also doing it wrong. Furthermore, as we are all well aware, in Christianity we have our Extremists just like the Muslim cultures. Instead of Suicide Bombers we have "the God Warrior Lady" from Trading Spouses and those that spew hate bearing signs stating "God hates Fags." It's a media goldmine!!!! So what do we do about it? I believe I need to do my role by being an active part of a community that does it "right" and living a life of integrity and influence in hopes that I can be a usable vessel. Man that sounds Churchy...
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written by Dan , April 23, 2008 I don't think that sounds churchy Wade... maybe statements like that should be more part of our vocab. I don't think we need to go the way of censoring ourselves because some things are related to people's baggage in the church. I think authenticity has to be an aim and words like, right (not in the political sense, ha), integrity, influence, hope, useable are all great values to have.
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written by Cory S. , April 23, 2008 I have become all things to all men so that by all possible means I might save some. I do this for the sake of the gospel, that I might share in its blessings... - 1 Corinthians 9:22-23, NIV that doesnt sound like being culturally relevant as much as culturally accommodating.
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written by Cory S. , April 23, 2008 what i mean by that is he doesn't just seem to be trying to be up with the times. its more like he's just trying to look attractive to anyone.
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written by Jess , April 23, 2008 I guess my main concern with all the talk about relevancy and leading culture is that the discussion never really goes anywhere -- what changes when five people over the internet debate? When McManus writes a book? Sure, people read it and get motivated . . . to do what? I'm not saying that the conversation shouldn't happen or continue, but I do think a big reason why the church isn't as effective as it can be is because people spend too much time talking about problems with the world and not enough time working to fix them. And while The Barbarian Way mentality used to get me really motivated, and part of me still thinks the Banksy quote about revolutionaries is cool, the other part knows that it's not realistic. Take a look back at the "Stuff Christians Like" website. #148, War-themed Ministries -- "we Christians love getting battle flavored." And to what purpose? Because it gets our adrenaline going and makes us feel important, equipped, or useful? If knowing what's going on with the world is the problem at stake, the answer is probably simple -- read the newspaper, and then do something about it. Paul wasn't Greek. He didn't go to Mars Hill wearing battle paint. He studied the Greeks, looked at where the issues were, and brought a solution to the table.
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written by ~wade , April 23, 2008 First off Potter, I miss you to pieces!!!! Ok here is what cultural relevence is to me. It means being able to hang out with non-Christians without passing judgement on them for drinking too much, fornicating, being gay. It means creating a church environment where the music is performed by quality musicians and sounds more like what you may hear on the radio than your uncles Gaither Collection. It means giving a message that is applicable for life not one meant to literally scare the "hell" out of someone. The bottom line is I don't believe that their will be a paradigm shift in the Christian culture. I believe it is a transformation that is slowly taking place as more people realize the way we have done things for so long need changed. In a way, Rob Bell to me is a revolutionary. Not because he is cool and trendy or bucking the system, but because he has stepped out of the traditional ways of ministry. Velvet Elvis jacked me up. In a good way. Based on everything I was taught growing up, I deemed it almost heresy at first. I believe our culture will be and is being changed as people such as Rob Bell, Andy Stanley, Rick Warren are coming around. The beauty of it all is that there are a new generation of people coming to Christ who have never experienced the legalistic, judgemental church which many of us have as baggage.
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written by tyler sayre , April 23, 2008 Sure, people read it and get motivated . . . to do what? i think this largely underestimates the change that is happening all around us... the church is on the move (not the one in tulsa) but the actual church ha... its going places, and i think that its unleashing the apostolic ethos that was apparent in the NT and is becoming the movement that we see throughout acts. whats keeping us from really breaking free though and just going for it... i feel like we have swung in radical reactions to the past time and time again... early holiness condemed culture, francis shaeffar critiqued culture, the ccm movement copied culture, now its time to create... but we cannot create the new ideas by continually turning to 'safe business models' produced by the CEO of today, over the dangerous move of the spirit represented in the nt church
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written by Jess , April 23, 2008 So for whatever reason, Cory's first post just now showed up, and honestly, I kind of take offense to the term naive. I avoid Christian radio and t-shirts like the plague, and Relevant Magazine is a joke. I know. My point was that I'm kind of sick of hearing everyone talk about the Church like it's a sinking ship. There are broken parts of course, yes, but instead of pointing fingers at what churches are doing wrong, why don't we start looking and coping the churches that get it right.
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written by Jess , April 23, 2008 And I stand by my earlier statement: I still think the Church is relevant, and I still don't think that's going to change.
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written by Cory S. , April 23, 2008 im sorry. naive was too strong a word to use there. i just meant that i disagree.
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written by Dan , April 23, 2008 But see I don't think having an honest dialogue about some of the broken parts is talking about the Church like it's a sinking ship. I don't believe that at all. I have great hope in Church. I think it's God plan for reaching the world. I love the Church. And I don't think recognizing or identifying hurdles that have held us back is pointing fingers either. Especially when the heart behind it is genuinely to be more effective at following Christ mandate. My original question was not "What wrong with the Church?" Full stop. It was, let's identify some hurdles that are keeping us from being all that we can be and could be. It's not meant to be church-bashing... not at all. But to completely go the opposite of Tyler's anti-CEO sentiment, I'll quote from Jim Collins in chapter 4 of the business book "Good to Great"... You have to "Confront the brutal facts yet never lose faith." You have to have both. And again, don't mistake having a conversation about real issues as finger pointing... yes at the end of the day, as individuals we have to choose a different way but I think because of honest dialogue we're also the better for it. Maybe my next post like this will be... "What does the Church do well?" I think that's just as important to explore as well. BTW, Jess.. you need to log into Skype more... :)
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written by tyes , April 23, 2008 so far i have seen nothing but posotive reinforcement of the churches progression in almost every comment. so far its all for the church, but its like whats the next step? whats the future? and i dont think thats a bad question and obviously in order to go there you have to see the steps made before and gage where the next step is going, and like i said i think we're headed into the 'creating culture' at least i hope we are
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written by tyes , April 23, 2008 jess what church you in?... actually where do you live now? hows things?
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written by Dan , April 23, 2008 Jess wrote..."Paul wasn't Greek. He didn't go to Mars Hill wearing battle paint. He studied the Greeks, looked at where the issues were, and brought a solution to the table." I Just now read that and I think you are actually making my point for me. He was aware of the culture and what was needed and then he was able to do something about it. And, I'm with you to some degree about Barbarian Way although when you read the book he did mention that the Barbarian Way was the one of faith, hope, and love. And, I'm with you (and Prodigal Jon) on War-Themed ministries but let's also not lose sight of the fact that he wasn't the first to use war as a metaphor. It's found all throughout Scripture including Paul who stood on Mars Hill. (No I don't think he had on battle-paint either). As for what can five people having a conversation accomplish... I don't know. I've been enriched by reading some of the thoughts on here. Dana's take on smaller rather than big really struck a cord and you're right... when it comes down to it... talk is just that... it's talk but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have it's place. I think it does and I for one have been the better for it from everyone here engaging.
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written by tyes , April 23, 2008 just had a few thoughts... me and cory were discussing what would the replys be to 'whats good in the church'... and it really was cool to me, like the topic is 'whats good with the church' is whats good with the church, in other words the topic discussing the positives is a part of the solution. in recent times with so much 'hate church' going around i think there has been a strong reaction by people like us who either got tired of being bitter and were like wait, i love the church, i think thats whats good with the church, that you have a group of people are age wanting to lift up the church not bash it, and believe me i think the sentiment is growing, i think people are falling back in love with the movement of god... so i think the post 'whats good with the church' is whats good with the church... hope that makes sense
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written by Cory S. , April 23, 2008 totally! its all about the church. the bitter people are waking up. i watched a video of rich mullins last concert. man he was awesome. he talked about his childhood at church camp and how, though the church had things wrong, his growing up in the church gave him such an allegiance to it. and i connected with that so much. thinking back. we did stupid things, but its so much better now, and it makes me so proud. because of the love and attachment i have for the church. its a happy time. truly. but that doesnt mean we dont have a lot of growing to do still. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZNYtYRbH6aI&mode=related&search= this is the rich mullins video. its 10 minutes long. but watch it. its great.
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written by Jess , April 23, 2008 Hey Tyler, thanks for asking! To keep it short, I'm in Madison, Wisconsin with Zach and we're both students at the University of Wisconsin-Madison, "the number one party school in the country." We go to Blackhawk Church in Madison (www.blackhawkchurch.org)and absolutely love it. It's unlike any other church I've ever gone to. For example: Every year, there's this huge celebration (read: 20,000 people), the Mifflin Street Block Party. It's HUGE -- the police force here like imports officers from other cities, it's ridiculous. People are drunk by 9 in the morning and a lot of people get robbed and raped. Anyways, on the day after the party, a couple hundred people from Blackhawk -- college-aged, middle-aged, you name it -- get together around 6 am and clean the street up. Throw away all the used condoms, beer cans, empty cups. I've not gone yet -- it's in a few weeks, actually -- but Zach's gone every year he's been here and truly believes the implications of a church doing something like that are amazing. I mean, the thought of a church essentially saying that nothing is too disgusting for them, nothing too dirty, nothing they don't want to touch -- it speaks volumes. And just to keep exhausting my role in this thing (sorry!), please don't think I'm blind to the change that needs to happen. It's just, for the first time in my life, I'm not the one laughing at the church. I love the dialog. This took way too long to happen, and needs to be a habit.
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written by Jess , April 23, 2008 How about instead of me logging on to Skype, Daniel, you buy a phone so we can have a conversation like normal people.
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written by Jess , April 24, 2008 OH and by saying I'm not the one laughing, I'm not implying that anyone here even remotely carries that attitude. I'm just saying I've lived on the other side of the spectrum.
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written by Garrett , April 24, 2008 Tyler asked me this afternoon if I was watching this all unfold and it has taken me to 10PM to finally take a peek. Cory and I went round and round tonight as well. The only thing I would contribute is this . . . No matter how badly we would like something to be true, somethings simply aren't what we wish. 1. Theologically is the Church the body of Christ, yes. But are our denominations really organizations, yes. (Businesses) Any time money can control something, its a business. This would be one reason why Paul made tents. No hands putting money in his pocket, not agenda to keep. 2. Cory used the word bitter. Why is it that people who don't want to attend a local building on Sunday mornings have to be bitter? I can just about guarantee no one on here is going to tell me its a requirement. We all know its not a commandment or law or anything else that is required to grow with God and be accepted in his grace. The idea of a weekly service is to be around those like minded and to pool resources to accomplish something. Thats great, except most people that attend church are not of like mind with me and it isn't the only way to pool resources. Why is it I can't have times of fellowship with those who have the same worldview as me and us pool our resources to feed the poor, take care of the sick and visit those in prison? What, do you not trust that I am going to be a good little boy with out Big Brother making sure my walk is right? People are just as capable of living a Godly life with out organized religious institutions as those inside those institutions are at screwing up their lives. And please don't tell me that things can't get done outside the walls of the church. I have never been as useful to my neighbor as I am outside of the local church. 3. Lastly, cool? Relevant? At some point we leave our teenage years behind. Cool is relative to who you are talking about and so is relevant. Is there a non cool way to feed a homeless person? And only certain people would think the act is "cool." What is not relative is the mandates from God. If your going to be a Christian, you HAVE to have works that come from faith. No work, no God. Any one who takes care of their neighbor is cool in my book, hell they can wear parachute pants while they do it. I love these talks as much as the next guy, but whoever said it above is right. . . at some point, if you have really bought into this ideal, you just stat doing. I DO believe the Church is fundamentally wrong and that what is taught (from my experience) hurts the shot for a healthy life. So I don't attend traditional church services. If you DO, great. Awesome. Perfect. As called as a person can feel to help "fix" the church is as called as alot of us feel to ignore a organization and focus on the immediate people around us. Either way it just doesn't mean anything unless our lives are worth something to our neighbor, day in and day out.
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written by Garrett , April 24, 2008 One other thought. . . We compare church and business alot, but let me share this nugget. . . It's PROFOUNDLY easier to shape and change a million dollar business than it is to change a million dollar church. Why? Because a business is goal orientated, not preference orientated. Results matter. In a business you get the best brains in the room and you hash it out. You find a result. You define a win. You figure a way to track it. Then, oh this is exciting, you put it into practice. If it doesn't work, you don't have decades you have months to fix it and relaunch. Cory gets to be apart of this in real life everyday. Helping something grow and evolve. He is held to very real standards and has very real objectives to meet. In his hands lie hundreds of thousands of dollars every year. He is invited into the room to help grow a company, his input is asked for and his ideas are wanted. Cory is beyond talented professionally. Cory can shape something and does. He is in his early twenties. In fact, the whole staff is in their twenties minus two people. And they run a million dollar company. I say this to point out we CAN do something. We DON"T have to wait for some other group to get their crap together. We are capable, by the grace of God to start something, define it, find what a win is, track our progress and put it into practice. It is possible. We do have other options than what was handed us.
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written by Cory S. , April 24, 2008 well there is power in the church, no matter if we have done wrong in the past and if you leave your conventional church and come together with other people who think like you do and do great things. then you are forming a church. which is part of the rest of the church who has things right. im not protecting churches who are completely wrong. i just know the majority of the church is on the right track. an there is power in those numbers. and if all you are fighting against is the organizing of people together for good. then you are just fighting the wrong thing.
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written by John G. , April 24, 2008 An organization is minor premiss. Not the major. If you want to call 10 people doing something together an organization, ok. Most are going to disagree. An organization has systems, boards, committees, bylaws, tax id numbers. You can make the term broad if you like. We would call our selves a group. A group of Christians, the body of Christ. You wanna call it a church, fine. You spend time calling it things, we'll spend time doing things. It simply isn't the point. And the MAJORITY of churches have it right? Sorry bro, thats just naive. I mean this with all respect, but that is alot of ideal talking and not a lot of experience.
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written by Cory S. , April 24, 2008 if i don't have experience in the church then no one does. im the first person to see whats wrong with things. but the bottom line is im part of the church right now and the thing i see most of is love, acceptance, generosity, and an awesome growth happening
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written by Jess , April 24, 2008 I agree Cory. I was just gonna add that since all of us here were born within the same 10 years, the experience card doesn't really come into play. I'd love to speak with someone in their sixties about this, though. See their take on where the church has been and where it's headed
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written by Cory S. , April 24, 2008 well im not sure i want to listen to just any 60 year old either. if they were in this debate with us we know where they would stand. not all. im just saying old farts are the problem. and you dont have to be old to be a fart. well im out on this one.... ill read any rebuttals but i will comment no more.
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written by Dan , April 24, 2008 At some point you have to simply say, there are things I don't agree with you on. But terms, like Big Brother and accusing the church of ruining lives and terms like Old Fart are far from helpful. At the very least, those are your brothers and sisters and unfortunately this line has digressed into expressing more what wrong with the Church... Christians unable to disagree and yet still be humble about it. Because really, as Jess pointed out earlier... these are all just generalizations. I would add that to imply that there is no value in the organized aspects is also a bit naive. In many parts of the world, the Church (and the expression of the Church through organized denominations) is the only thing bringing hope and help to the poverty and oppression that exists. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.
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written by Cory S. , April 24, 2008 woah. im talkin bout what is right with the church while agreeing with other people to some point that there are problems. if anything, old fart is a playful term for pharisee. which i do agree to some extent that that attitude is present in the church. but looking at my comments as a whole. i think we can agree that i have hope for the church, and defend it.
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written by Dan , April 24, 2008 Sorry about being unclear there. I was lumping a bunch of posts together there. Anyway, great comments and discussion. Let's leave this one here but I do wanna say thanks so much for engaging. Let's get another started about what the church is doing right. Look for that post on the frontpage. Much love.
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written by Garrett , April 24, 2008 Experience doesn't have to do solely with age. And outside experiences have alot do to with how a person views the world and church. Big Brother isn't naive either. Not even close. Churches tell people what to watch, what to listen to, who to vote for and what to read. And yes, the organization does do great things world wide. . . no one in their right mind would say other wise. But dedicated groups of people do great things as well. I have heard Cory say that it is every persons responsibility to be involved in mission and the taking care of hurting people every where. And I agree. Some of us just don't do it through organized American churches. To think it is the only way or Gods only way is exclusive arrogant and small minded. It isn't the only way. Write comment
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